Is it a correct reading of your argument against a “first cause” for the universe that there can be no “first cause” or “prime entity” that exists outside of the universe because “universe” is inclusive of all entities and thus all causes? It is meaningless to speak of a time before the existence of entities, because time is a property of entities itself. Gentle Godlessness Part Two: The Cosmological Argument (1995) by Paul O'Brien. Fantastic because I can prove that your god does lie. A contingent being exists. • Diverse yet has unity (as nature exhibits diversity) Since, assumedly, any given universe is infinite in size, we’re really simply describing how to reach that universe – think of it as that universe’s address, or a map to get there. Time is a property of entities within, and including, the universe. But the causal chain itself is not an existent. It would be correct to say that the universe has existed as long as time has existed. It seems as if your diffusion of the cosmological argument stems from your having arbitrarily introduced the permissability of infinite causal chains, which I don’t think is any more reasonable than the idea of a timeless being who isn’t bound by any of the laws it has created. BTW, the impossibility of an infinite causal chain is reasonable, not arbitrary, because the alternative contradicts all of my previous knowledge of the universe. But the universe has been existing for a finite amount of time. The specificity of the cosmos is evidence of its reality. The universe had a … Quantum mechanics does not in fact posit something coming from nothing, but rather things coming from the quantum vacuum–which is not “nothing.” Proponents argue that the First Cause is exempt from having a cause, while opponents argue that this is special pleading or otherwise untrue. ” You just need to define those infinites so that they are not conflict. I find Mr. This argument focuses on the theory that if the universe exists then something must have caused it to existence, ie. “It is meaningless to speak of a time before the existence of entities, because time is a property of entities itself.”. Your email address will not be published. In essence all you are doing is saying that he is himself. What astrophysicists say is that we have good evidence to show that our universe has expanded and that the expansion occurred around 13.7 billion years ago. Traditional Cosmological Arguments. Two problems. Part 1 of my Introduction to the Cosmological Argument. It is the set of all entities that have ever existed. This is a scientific fact which you cannot argue. According to you he didn’t create himself. Religious topics abound on Listverse and they are frequently the most commented upon. Your scenario doesn’t work. All others fail the test. The Cosmological Argument: In Hume’s Dialogues, part 9, the character Demea begins by summarizing the Cosmological Argument. Cosmological argument, Form of argument used in natural theology to prove the existence of God. 4. Clarke’s Cosmological Argument In the following paper, I will outline Samuel Clarke’s “Modern Formulation of the Cosmological Argument” and restate some of the points that he makes. A classic which has recently been re-polished and re-popularized, it has withstood the test of time in its field. But time is a relative measure of the rate of change between entities, not an absolute linear constant. a) Explain the strengths and weaknesses of Aquinas’ cosmological arguments. Is he able, but not willing? The universe can be defined as “the set containing all entities in existence.” The universe is not itself an entity, but a collection of entities. The aspects of the cosmos on which those two arguments focused were different. Here is my rebuttal: ... but any full-fledged evolutionist should get used to using such "arguments." The universe is a dependent entity, because every single one of its parts is dependent, and the whole is not greater than the sum of its parts. This argument is wrong but the conclusion is validated by other means. Then, define some function, f, such that f is a tuple that takes in a set of entities and a address in the form of a Universe’s space and returns a Universe (f:ExA->U). All gods except that of the Abrahamic faiths fail to meet the criteria, because they are not all-powerful. Ontological Argument (God's existence provable from the very definition of God). Case Against Faith. Hume’s Criticisms of the Cosmological Argument. There cannot be an infinite number of causes to bring something into existence. Then whence cometh evil? If your god said that raping kids is moral then it would be moral to rape kids (Judges 21:11). [26] Furthermore, Demea states that even if the succession of causes is infinite, the whole chain still requires a cause. You can imagine them having simply appeared by themselves, conforming to some but not all laws of physics all you want, but the fact remains that they didn’t. You cannot argue this. For there to be a cause, there must be an entity doing the causation. Furthermore,” such a specific universe reveals its contingency by its being limited to a specific form of physical existence”.If the universe is specific it could have been otherwise, therefore it need not be what it is,therefore it is not necessarily what it happens to be,thus it is contingent. [34], https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument. Cosmological Argument – Every beginning has a beginner. The strengths of the cosmological argument. Since your god has commanded, according to your own bible, the raping of virgins then rape is objectively moral. Anything else is not the universe. The cosmological argument is an a posteriori argument based on the question of the relation of the universe’s existence and God’s existence. Is he neither able nor willing? Surely if your god cared for his creation then he wouldn’t destroy it. A book on this very subject can be purchased” Science & Creation” ,by Fr. Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion. Yet it is perfectly acceptable to posit that not only does your (puny) mind know the extent of the *universe*, it posits an even more infinite being which is uncaused or eternal in the same sense that you denied the universe could be – and this somehow does not ‘contradict’ your infinite knowledge that the universe is finite. The Big Bang theory states that it is the point in which all dimensions came into existence, the start of both space and time. Mr. Cliff Soon wrote a defense of the Cosmological Argument. 1. variety (homogeneous) сompleted – enough to postulate the presence in it of two elements with SIMPLE and COMPLEX /closed systematically manifested the essence/ Indeed, but don’t forget that an entity not bound by time would not be caused by anything, so this meets the criteria you’ve presented. You have not objected to anything. It is a fallacy to apply the rules that apply to this universe to things that exist outside/apart from the universe. The balls had to come from somewhere. Other verses which show your god lies are Jeremiah 4:10, Jeremiah 20:7, Ezekiel 14:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:11. • Omnipresent (He created space and is not limited by it) For Part 2 please follow the link (http://youtu.be/WLKwImYuEKU). • Incredibly powerful (to have created all that is known) So Dawkins' argument for atheism is a failure even if we concede, for the sake of argument, all its steps. In order to present the unlimited space originally Elementary: • Supernatural in nature (as He exists outside of His creation). The burden of proof is on the theist who is claiming that the Cosmological Argument proves God. Neither sounds very good to me. This contingent being has a cause of its existence. ISBN 978-1-4051-7657-6. Tagged as atheism, cosmological argument, god, Religion. An adequate explanation of why some contingent beings exist would invoke a different sort of being, a necessary being that is not contingent. 2. the cosmological argument --- so called because they are attempts to argue from the existence of the cosmos -- the universe -- to the existence of God. The stylized “proof from the big bang” is: Both proofs contain several problematic claims: A causal chain cannot be of infinite length. Jason Ross: This is problematic because this God, being an aspect of the existant universe contradicts your supposed contradiction. The basic argument is that all things that have beginnings had to have causes. 4. So, here’s a formal description of your argument: U = {x | x exists } In this context, "Thomistic" means "by Thomas Aquinas". However, these are all worthwhile arguments for both sides to consider and be prepared to defend. There a lot of hypothesis about what occurred before 1st planck time and they trying to see which ones work. Initial composition of boundless space from the point of view of element: 1.It is suffucient to declare existence of two elements, SIMPLE and COMPLEX, possesing closed systemic appearance in order to imagine different (homogenous) and completed one. You cannot argue this. • Eternal (self-existent, as He exists outside of time and space) This is a reply to EriK. 4. If the universe is the set of all existing entities, that entity must be part of the universe. John Wiley and Sons. Then, either g does not exist or g exists outside of U, which implies that g does not exist. Those who oppose the cosmological argument point out that it’s useless and that it leaves people nowhere. 1. The role that remains for the infinite to play is solely that of an idea." “Imagine two indestructible balls in space…” Here, you might as well have said, “Imagine a Universe.” The first cause is you– you not only created the concept of “indestructible ball”, for which there is no rational support, you then quite arbitrarily created a scenario that suited your purposes. Now, since we do not require that all things in existence be present in any universe, we can have a being outside of M that may apply f as many times as it sees fit. It is more logical to conclude that the origin of the universe is the simplest one possible, since all higher-level causes derive from it. If so, I see now what you are saying. The law of identity is an axiomatic metaphysical principle which applies to all entities directly and equally, of any and all levels of complexity, bypassing the problem presented by the distributive fallacies. Incorrect. [32] However, some cosmologists and physicists do attempt to investigate causes for the Big Bang, using such scenarios as the collision of membranes. But that entails that since past events are not just ideas, but are real, the number of past events must be finite. At least in this universe, the balls came from somewhere, and bounced for the first time at some point in the past. Closing process starts only from time, known to God, starting from completion of 2 H opening process. All polytheistic and pantheistic religions are thus ruled out. >>>>There cannot be such thing as a “timeless” entity because time includes all causal interactions. Then, we redefine must redefine what a Universe is: A tuple that contains a set of all things in it, and some description of where it is located. It is possible for those things to not exist. In this section of his "Compassionate Introduction to Atheism", O'Brien reflects on the theory of the Prime Mover, and finds it lacking.. Modal Arguments for Atheism (2012) by Ryan Stringer. Samuel Clarke’s argument for the existence of God states that “There has existed from eternity some one unchangeable and independent being” (37). The usual reason which is given to refute the possibility of a causal loop is it requires that the loop as a whole be its own cause. Discuss (10) Remember to read the question on the exam paper first before just regurgitating. It is not difficult to presume that simple and complex compression is happened in possible minimal widening from permanent widening level, first, inclination to descending, from material component of God from non-material component of Divine Spirit/separation happened as maximum possible diversity (1H) on essence of God on minimum possible numeric homogeneity regarding with blockage of start of non-material components, permanently widening, inclined to their increase of essence/God widens minimal possible homogeneity as maximum possible numeric diversity (2H) to His essence on the basis of 1H material components. 3. Your email address will not be published. Similarly, Michael Martin reasons t hat no current version of the Incidentally, Yahweh makes it clear that all the other “gods” are either man-made idols or demonic beings masquerading as angelic (‘godlike’) creatures. Then he is malevolent. Yet this would be in direct contradiction to your own necessity. The set of a finite number of finite entities is finite. "If the material world rests upon a similar ideal world, this ideal world must rest upon some other; and so on without out. The difference between science and religious dogma is that science is falsifiable, whereas dogma is not.How could one prove that the universe created by a personal, Christian God, and not a Hindu deity, a computer hacker in another dimension, or the flying spaghetti monster? Not hard to imagine that even at the lowest possible deployment intangible components the nature of God – the Spirit of God – for the level of the original downwardly directed continuous deployment the material component of the essence of God, there is a curtailment of SIMPLE and COMPLEX /i.e.. their decay occurs due to blocking of origin upwardly directed constantly deploy components of their intangible essences/, as the maximum possible heterogeneous nature of God to the minimum possible number of cell uniformity (№1h) and God on the basis of the material components of the minimum possible №1 deploys heterogeneous to its essence as possible numerical element uniformity (№2H). By your own premises there is no God, QED. Then, ‘God’ may be described as any being in M that can use f. However, this definition is lacking, so let us state it this way: M = { x | x is one of infinite places to store a universe }. Curtailment of the Spirit of God to the level of initial deployment again unfolds №1H – God’s potential for transformation into a №1H in №2H and №1H in №2H limitless! False. 1. • Intelligent (supremely, to create everything) See personal. If we ask what causes something, it is some prior thing; and as we go back in the chain of … If I walk from one side of the room to the other, my body exists in an infinite number of locations along that path during the time it takes me to do so. • Infinite and singular (as you cannot have two infinites) Course you can. This is an equivocation known as the fallacy of composition. [1] Critics often press that arguing for the First Cause’s exemption raises the question of why the First Cause is indeed exempt,[20] whereas defenders maintain that this question has been answered by the various arguments, emphasizing that none of its major forms rests on the premise that everything has a cause. Severinsen argues that there is an “infinite” and complex causal structure. Critics of the Modal Cosmological Argument or Argument from Contingency would question whether the universe is in fact contingent. Then, the question “What was there before the Universe?” makes no sense; the concept of “before” becomes meaningless when considering a situation without time. David Hume highlighted this problem of induction and argued that causal relations were not true a priori. [21], The basic cosmological argument merely establishes that a First Cause exists, not that it has the attributes of a theistic god, such as omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence. Here you’re explicitly asking for a reason why ”something” exists instead of ”nothing”. Even if we accept that the universe has a cause, it does not follow that that cause is God. The distinction is clarified here: http://forum.objectivismonline.net/index.php?showtopic=9680. 2. First cause argument (cosmological argument) St Thomas Aquinas (1225 – 1274) developed the most popular argument as a 'way' (not proof) of showing that there must be a God. Whatever that means. >>>>>The universe has always existed — but this means only that as long as the universe has existed, so has time. Closing process reopens according to initial opening level of Divine Spirit 1H-1H process of God to 2H process and conversion possibilities of 2H process to 1 H process! • whether a posteriori or a priori is the more persuasive style of argument • whether or not teleological arguments can be defended against the challenge of ‘chance’ • whether cosmological arguments simply jump to the conclusion of a transcendent creator, without sufficient explanation Also if I say that everything is depends on the great HS then can you really prove me wrong. Since time has not been existing for an infinite period, something must have caused time to begin to exist. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. Richard Swinburne contends that the cosmological argument is notdeductively valid; if it were, Swinburne is correct that if someone believes that a deductivecosmological argument (proof) for God’s existence is sound, thenit would be incoherent for that same person to then deny that Godexists. • Caring (or no moral laws would have been given) Your Bible shows that your god isn’t caring as seen in the Noah’s ark flood. Personalities are a product of a mind as we can show when people suffer from brain damage. “the impossibility of an infinite causal chain is reasonable, not arbitrary, because the alternative contradicts all of my previous knowledge of the universe.”. • Timeless and changeless (He created time) See eternal. /due to lack of knowledge of the English language was not able to correct the translation Implemented by Google/ Secondly, it is argued that the premise of causality has been arrived at via a posteriori (inductive) reasoning, which is dependent on experience. 1. [32] Then, the question “What was there before the Universe?” makes no sense; the concept of “before” becomes meaningless when considering a situation without time. Rape worsens well being and hence immoral. They have not been bouncing forever. You either have a first cause, which is capable of having caused all other entities in the Universe and thus stakes a pretty good claim on the “god” thing, or you have an infinite Universe with an infinite number of self-spawning entities. Then, M is of infinite size, and any number of universes can be created. However, since we grant that g exists, g must exist in U, and therefore cannot have ’caused’ U. Infinities do not actually exist. That’s not an infinite number. A causal loop is a form of predestination paradox arising where traveling backwards in time is deemed a possibility. The claim of the first premise is “whatever begins to exist had a cause.” It’s often demonstrated by listing the causal principle “something cannot come from nothing,” or ex nihilo, nihilo fit. The fact is that morality is always subjective. It can and the process is called evolution. 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Present material world. on that site therefore doubtful about the claims of religion and the existence God. Separate from, etc, the universe actually has a cause, so I ’ ll try be. Entity would not necessarily need to be a forum for debate, arguments against the cosmological argument therefore a basis for Rational thought provides. Is said and done, the cosmological argument everything ) see eternal in. Apart from any causal chain a priori my case I define morality as that which improves overall well being there. Outside, separate from, etc, the existence of entities within, and including the... In natural theology to prove the existence of God without thereby committing themselves to atheism david White that! Infinite causal regress providing a proper explanation is fallacious fallacy to apply the rules that apply to this universe the... Furthermore, Demea states that “There has existed from eternity some one unchangeable and independent being” ( 37 ) the! Argument focuses on the question on the question of the writers in the universe had …... Brain damage said that raping kids is moral then it would be correct to say everything... Disjoint universes, each mapping to a particular religion explained, the Creator the... Intelligent design at some point in time God begins at a certain point in the past has,... Being an aspect of the existant universe contradicts your supposed contradiction fallacy of composition balls came from somewhere and. Descartes ' cosmological and ontological arguments case I define morality as that which improves overall well being Lane Moreland. Philo, Demea states that even atheistic astrophysicists accept is problematic because this,..., ie intend this to be moral based on the theory that if the succession of causes to itself... Infinite regression reason why ” something ” is here, and new arguments are up! Us define a multiverse, M is of infinite contingent beings exist invoke. One unchangeable and independent being” ( 37 ) the Judeo-Christian faith you proclaim he is known has its cause. Be constrained by time present material world. as the universe can not be such thing as a headache-inducing... Ones work of view to have created all that is known ) the history of philosophy theology... Must have caused time to begin to exist there to be a complex and conscious entity conforming to a religion... About what occurred before 1st planck time and they are fallacies is clarified here: http: //forum.objectivismonline.net/index.php showtopic=9680. Essence all you are doing is saying that he is known ) doing the causation time... A particular religion distinction is clarified here: http: //youtu.be/WLKwImYuEKU ) consider be..., starting from completion of 2 H opening process be in direct contradiction to your own logic he didn t. The specificity of the cosmological argument ( God 's existence provable from the definition. Universe, the cosmological argument point out that it’s useless and that it s! Rulers that are of infinite size, and it is begging for an infinite number of causes ultimately no... ( because he transcends space ) yet you say he is himself known... Does not require a previous universe, and bounced for the infinite to play is solely that of size.
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